> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
Character to words ratio
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kdavid -

Seeing how a number of characters seem to be used a number of times in different, and not
necessarily related, words, how many actual characters do you think would be needed to write, say,
the 4,000 most common words used in daily life. And then some, what about 10,000 words?



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roddy -

If you're willing to take the HSK vocab lists as an acceptable take on 'most common words'. you
can come up with this fairly easily:

Level 1: 1033 words, 798 characters
Level 2: 2018 words, 808 characters
Level 3: 2202 words, 598 characters
Level 4: 3569 words, 670 characters

So, rounding off to friendly numbers
Your first 1000 words need 800 characters
Your first 3000 words need 1500 characters
Your first 5000 words need 2100 characters
Your first 8800 words need 2800 characters

The main character learning 'push' would therefore be at the start, assuming of course you are
learning to write. At Level 1 you have to learn 800 characters and you get only 1000 words in
return. But by Level Four you get over three times as many words for less additional characters -
although tragically you still have to actually learn the words, you can't just learn the
characters and wait for them to pop into your head.










kdavid -

That's exactly what I was looking for. Those numbers look like Christmas morning. Now I don't feel
so hopeless. Thanks, Roddy!










Shadowdh -

Yep me too.. thanks Roddy,

this is quite useful info.. I know what you mean about the words though... why is it that when two
characters are combined they can come to mean something completely different to what you
thought... sigh...










HashiriKata -



Quote:

why is it that when two characters are combined they can come to mean something completely
different to what you thought... sigh...

There're 2 possible answers to this:

1. To keep the number of characters down, out of pity for us learners.
2. To frustrate foreigners who try to master the language.












mamba9 -

sounds exactly like chemistry to me. Remove an oxygen and all of a sudden it turns to poison lol.










roddy -

This is a related tool - you can plug in the characters you already know / are learning / dream
vaguely of one day being somewhat familiar with, and it will output the words that those
characters will allow you to write. It can be kind of encouraging to see sometimes how very simple
characters you might learn early on in a writing course - say 中,立,天,文 - can combine to
produce less common bits of vocab like 中立 and 天文.

I'd imagine there's something out there that works in reverse - plug in the vocab you already know
and get a list of the characters you'll need to learn how to write - but I don't know specifically
where.










Hero Doug -

Yeah I'll second that, it is a very promising list. 3000 characters for 10 000 words is a really
nice ratio.










roddy -

Probably also worth noting that as the words are restricted to those on the HSK lists, you'd also
find that those characters give you 'extra' words。 笔记本, for example, isn't on the lists,
but you'd be able to write it with characters you'd learn at first level.










Koneko -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Shadowdh

why is it that when two characters are combined they can come to mean something completely
different to what you thought


I cannot really answer your question here but I think you can discover more through 语素.
语素 is like a "proper" Chinese intermediate grammar once you have mastered most Chinese basic
grammar.

A good knowledge of 语素 will enable you to tell which characters can be combined and used as a
pair, 3-character-word, etc. You will also gain a deeper understanding of the uniqueness of
Chinese characters.

K.












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> Learning Chinese > Resources and General Study Issues
2 questions - translation and chinese progress relation
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赫杰 -

1) If you HAD to choose one, what do you feel is overall better for your Chinese, translating from
English to Chinese or translating from Chinese to English? Why?

2) Thought of another stupid question I wanted to ask everybody: imagine two people (Person A and
Person B) learning Chinese; both have the same learning capacity for languages, same age, same
intense effort, same everything (well accept for names ha-ha), just a different approach to
learning Chinese.

Person A – Studies Chinese everyday for three hours a day for two years, 1 hour in a
standardized comprehensive Chinese class, 2 hours studying a standardized comprehensive text book
and doing exercises (during this time he is advancing through different Chinese courses and is
indeed using different textbooks). On the days there are no classes, studies the text book for 3
hours (strict teacher ha-ha)

Person B – Translates between the two languages everyday for three hours for two years, starting
off translating like Chinese/English kid stories/programs and then after one year, moves up to
other things like TV Dramas and stuff like that, during this time has to take the time to learn
the 部首 system to look up the characters he does not recognize (not to mention pinyin). He
spends 1.5 hours a day translating from English to Chinese and 1.5 hours a day the other way.

For the heck of it, let’s say after year of study for each student, they spend one hour a week
doing their best to talk the same native Chinese person.

After two years, who in your opinion would have the better Chinese? Why? And who would have the
overall better translating ability? Why?

Many thanks
HJ



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gougou -



Quote:

1) If you HAD to choose one, what do you feel is overall better for your Chinese, translating from
English to Chinese or translating from Chinese to English? Why?

Depends on your level of Chinese. When you're still at a rather basic level, you'll be better off
translating from Chinese to English, as you will be working with grammatically correct texts. The
other way would be dangerous, you might end up learning your own mistakes. Once you have reached a
level where you can assume that most of what you say is correct, you might want to consider the
other way, too, to put what you learned into use. It does depend on learning styles, too; some
people prefer passive learning (i.e., understanding Chinese texts), others need to learn actively
(i.e., use everything they learned, and maybe a bit more than that). Oh, and look how I still
managed not to choose...



Quote:

After two years, who in your opinion would have the better Chinese? Why? And who would have the
overall better translating ability? Why?

Person A will be advancing much faster in the beginning, it just is much more efficient to be told
how a grammatical construct like complements works then having to extrapolate those rules by
looking at many, many samples. I think it is quite possible that this would save him so much time
that even in terms of translating ability, he is still ahead of person B.










Koneko -

This can be very subjective but I think it's easier to translate English to Chinese than the other
way round. Since there are quite a lot of golden sayings in Chinese, which are pretty hard to
explain in English.

X X X

I personally think that Person B will progress quicker than Person A because his way of learning
is more interactive. Person A might know a lot of theories but he might not be able to express
better than Person B. In term of writing, Person A might do better than Person B... Well, the
possibilities are endless, I am not very good at judging. Just based on some general assumptions,
I think Person B will be better than Person A in overall.

K.










wushijiao -

Like Koneko says, it depends on a lot of factors? Are A's teachers and textbooks good? Does B know
what s/he is doing?

I think neither system is ideal, but A would probably learn faster. I think if you had, say, 10
people doing A's system and 10 doing B's, you might find that, at the end, the best results would
belong to one or two B students, but the A's would do better overall.

The fact is, most people don't know how to learn on thier own. Also, good textbooks are written by
experts who have studied these issues for decades and can feed the most stuff into the minds of
newbies as quick as possible, in theory. Textbooks (in theory) teach the most important stuff, the
foundation, right away, which would enable A to get better quickly.

Of course a good student of the B method would have a better natural use of the language and would
pick up grammar naturally, but that is assuming that he or she could cope.












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> Learning Chinese > Chinese Computing and Technology > ZDT Flashcards Forum
ZDT: Category View Woes
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bogleg -

Drahnier -

Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, the installer does try to put the files in the
c:Documents and Settingszdt directory. Are you saying it didn't on your system? How
does the program look on Vista? Could you send me a screenshot?

Thanks

Chris



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drahnier -

Ah, sorry my fault. I misse part of the D&S string: The correct directory for XP should be
"Documents and SettingsApplication Datazdt", which on a Vista system will be
automatically mapped to "UsesAppDatazdt".

zdt uses "Documents and Settingszdt" which is non-standard for up to date XP apps.

I added a screenshot of zdt running under Vista RC2 buld 5744.










bogleg -

Thanks for the screenshot. Glad it works without having to make any modifications. You are
probably right about putting stuff in the Application Data folder. Although a quick glance at my
current computer shows that there are a lot of Java apps stuff their data where I do including
Dimsum, Netbeans, Intellij Idea. I think it's a cross-platform issue. On Windows the built-in
user.home Java system property points to the "documents and settings" directory.

Chris












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> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
What language is best/worst for speaking Chinese ?
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daxia -

Yo

I was thinking about how you can hear from what country allot of foreign Chinese speakers comes
from by listening to how they speak. It seems that people from certain places has allot more
trouble speaking correct Chinese then others. The nationalities I find it easiest to spot are:
Americans, Japanese, Indonesians (can be tricky), Koreans, French and Middle East.

(Of course, there are exeptions like 大山 etc, who speaks perfect Chinese. Allot of ppl even say
that he speaks better then most Chinese)

I think that especially Japanese ppl allot of times have trouble with Chinese pronunciation,
especially the "qu" sound and the "shi" sound (they kick ass at learning everything else though).

The nationality who speaks the best Chinese, in my opinion, are Vietnamese people. In most cases
it almost impossible, even for the Chinese themself, to tell wheter a person is Chinese or
Vietnamese. The fact that they pretty much look the same doesnt make it easier.

What do you guys think about this ?



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heifeng -

As an English speaker here's my run down of my impression...
Americans: I can just hear that their tones sound like English, the chu qu issue is there...
British: just hear hints of a British accent....
Japanese: F+ H, n + ng are a bit mangled, good tones
Korean: yue, yu, sounds akward, z + zh too similar, good tones
Vietnamese: well it seems to me that they often speak cantonese, so if they speak mandarin, maybe
it sounds more Southern accented Chinese.
Thai: the Huaqiao are really good, really can't tell they are not Chinese, but if they didn't
learn it from a young age it's incredibly nasal or something....very interesting sounding...

I've also been able to pick out Russian, Italian, and French students just because they still have
a bit of their native accent on pronouncing some words, but I can't remember which sounds in
particular.

(It would be good to hear from native Chinese that have been exposed to many foreigners who can
speak Chinese though, HOWEVER I think only GOOD Chinese language teachers can actually tell you
which countries generate good Chinese speaking students. )










wix -

I have met some Thai people that speak Mandarin with a terrible accent.

While L1 interference is a problem, I think with good instruction most people should be able to
learn Mandarin without a strong accent. Perhaps speakers of certain languages will have difficulty
with certain sounds though.










HashiriKata -



Quote:

Perhaps speakers of certain languages will have difficulty with certain sounds though.

This is true, but the difficulty can be overcome if one is determined enough.

Heifeng mentioned Thai Huaqiao speaking Chinese, but with regard Huaqiao, aren't we talking about
a completely different question all together ???










Hero Doug -

You know I've talked about this with a lot of native Chinese because I've been wondering which
language has the nicest accent in Chinese. The only answer I've received (and I've asked a lot of
people) is "that [INSERT LOCATION OF CHINA] has the nicest accent."

Each and everytime they picked a regional accent of China, like BeiJing, Chang Sha, the Sounth of
China, etc. Never once has anyone picked the French, or the Japanses. I'm always told that they
can't hear any differences between foreigners when speaking. I think many have had limited contact
with foreigners though.










wannabeafreak -



Quote:

The nationality who speaks the best Chinese, in my opinion, are Vietnamese people. In most cases
it almost impossible, even for the Chinese themself, to tell wheter a person is Chinese or
Vietnamese. The fact that they pretty much look the same doesnt make it easier.


Many Chinese-speaking Vietnamese are actually Chinese people who speak Cantonese all their life
and just happen to be born in Vietnam. I've asked a few with surnames like Nguyen etc, and they
said they are Chinese-Vietnamese and not Vietnamese, so its not any different to ABC, BBC, CBC.










HashiriKata -



Quote:

Many Chinese-speaking Vietnamese are actually Chinese people who speak Cantonese all their life
and just happen to be born in Vietnam.

So, basically they're Huaqiao, just like the Huaqiao from Thailand, and should be excluded from
this kind of comparison.

However, I believe Vietnamese can sound very good in Chinese (provided they've learned enough of
the language), due to the similarity between the two languages.










Language Guy -

There are quite a few Koreans in my Chinese class, and I can tell you that they are just as good
if not better with pronunciation and acquisition of charactars, and are especially more careful
about their tones than Americans.

But as above mentioned, they have a problem with the z/zh and the z/c recgonition and
pronunciation. I personally helped my Korean friend after class one day for about an hour to help
him hear and say the difference.










heifeng -

That's because they need to pass their HSK exams otherwise they will lose status within their
Korean inner circle of friends, let their parents down, and cause their neighbors to gossip!
haha, well they are a bit more hard core about characters and tones.

Some korean students seem to have some difficulty with er hua too.....


(yeah, on second thought Huaqiao should be eliminated from this discussion, although sometimes I
do meet some huaqiao who speak mandarin but it's really southern sounding. Not to be anal about
having to have northern pronouciation, but since you are studying Chinese, why not at least
attempt to have some distinction b/t the z,c,s, zhi,chi,shi....at least just try it out once in a
while)










daxia -



Quote:

There are quite a few Koreans in my Chinese class, and I can tell you that they are just as good
if not better with pronunciation and acquisition of charactars, and are especially more careful
about their tones than Americans.

I actually think that koreans have trouble with tones, especially girls for some reason. Sometimes
they add a falling tone to end of the last word in a sentence. Like "ni2 ha3o6" (6 being a weird
falling tone)

Ofcourse, after studying for some time most of theese problems disapear.

I think that most asians can learn to speak perfect Chinese if given enough time. Allot of
Westerners seems to have more trouble with this. It's like they get to a point where their
pronouciation ceases to improve. It's almost perfect. The tones and the pinyin are correct, but
still there is something there that sounds different.

I, myself am from sweden, but I have pretty much perfect pronounciation. Although I guess thats
becuase I have been living with Chinese people ever since I got here and spoke nothing but Chinese
with them.

A thing that has helped me ALLOT with my pronounciation is :
I watch Chinese movies and then when I hear a catchy phrase or something cool, I train it over and
over and record my voice and keep doing it untill I hardly hear any difference between the movie
guy and my own recording.

It also helps to talk to Chinese people that doesnt know that you are a foreigner over telephone
and in the end tell them and see what their reaction is.












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> Learning Chinese > Chinese Computing and Technology > ZDT Flashcards Forum
ZDT: is it possible to copy pinyin from the annototor?
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zig2101 -

is there a way to copy and paste from the pinyin window for ZDT's annotator? The copy button and
menu item seem to be greyed out.



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bogleg -

What version are you using? I think version 0.5.2 and later should have that problem fixed. Even
if it's grayed out in the menu, try pressing 'Ctrl-C' for copy and see if that works.

Chris










zig2101 -

i'm using 0.5.2. i've tried it on both windows and mac and it doesn't work










bogleg -

Actually, you are quite right about it not working. I don't know what I was looking at when I
tried it before. It's a bug and I'll try and get it fixed.

Thanks

Chris










zig2101 -

no problem. i really enjoy using zdt, btw. 加油！












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> Chinese Culture > Music
Lu Ba Ye song??
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dumpling_libre -

Hi:

Does anyone know what the english name for the song lu ba ye is? or the danish name (I think it's
danish, well, I don't know. It's not an english speaking band). But they play it EVERYWHERE in
beijing and I think it samples an old techno melody.

It is a guy who sings and there is a girl who sings the chorus (lu ba lu ba lu ba ye)

I'm trying to find it on the internet or something about the band, but the pingyin for "lu ba ye"
isn't pulling anything up...



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Daan -

You would not be referring to Dragostea Din Tei, would you?










skylee -

Like this song (which probably has nothing to do with Chinese culture)? -> 绿柠檬树下的爱










Yellowfroggy -

I think it is a song from a Romanian band. It was a big hit in Europe last 2 summers, but I don t
know the name of the band nor of the song. There was also a remix by an Italian band.










Lu -

The name of the song is Dragostea Din Tei, as Daan said, and the name of the band that originally
sang it is O-Zone, I think they're from Moldova but Romania could be right too. The Italian band
that covered it is Haiducii. There is also a Chinese cover, but I still like the Moldovian version
best :-)
Try google for more info.












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> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China > Classifieds
Room Available for Rent for Student in BLCU
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hefeng -

I'm looking for a room-mate to share a 2 bed-room apartment. It takes only 5 minutes walking to
BLCU. It is very spacious and bright, more than 60 square meters for total size, and the living
room is about 17 m2. The apartment has good interior decoration, wooden flooring, and with all
complete utilities, including TV, acoustics, washer, refrigeratory, air conditioners, telephone,
sofas. The room to be rent is the bigger one of two, sunshiny, and has a balcony with it. Sokets
for internet and TV is also available in this room.
Rent is ￥1800 and can be further negotiated.If you are interest in the flat, please feel free to
contact me to arange time for a view.You can visit this site (http://hefdev.vicp.net) for more
detail about the apartment, I have posted several photos on it..



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zeroseven -

HI,

I will be arriving next Wednesday to BLCU for a 2 year programme and will be looking for long term
accomodation.
Do you have any pictures?? of the accomodation. How many others will be sharing ??










hefeng -

Yeah, the pictures are available at http://hefdev.vicp.net. My msn is hef_online@hotmail.com, you
can contact me directly for more detail.










hefeng -

The rent is 1800RMB(about 120 pound)/month + 1/2 utilities fee (water, electricity, telephone,
gas).










hefeng -

The room is rented












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Mugi -

self-taught-mba has summed up the situation perfectly. No more to add in respect to 老外 per se.

But one further comment on 老 - while it is usually used in association with terms of endearment,
this is not always the case. Compare the distinction in 北京话 between 老头儿 (endearing)
and 老头子 (derogatory, when used by a stranger).



Quote:

Originally posted by roddy
if you turn up for a job interview and the receptionist tells her boss on the phone that 'that
bloke's here' or something.

I agree that "bloke" is probably similar in weight to 老外. However, no matter what the
situation, if someone referred to me as a "bloke" in a formal situation within my earshot, I would
either turn around and walk straight back out the door or have a few sharp words with the person
who uttered the term, or with their superior, and demand an apology.

Question: Have the terms 老白 and 老黄 (proffered above) actually come into existense to refer
to white guys and Asians respectively?
As for 老黑, when I was in China 10 years ago, this term was if not derogatory then certainly
very impolite, much more so than 老外. Has this changed?



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carlo -

The word 'foreigner' in English and 外国人/ 老外 etc. in Chinese are also used differently.
English speakers don't usually feel the need to specify that a friend is a foreigner, while a
foreign friend in Chinese is always a 外国朋友. Most people think of themselves primarily as
Americans, Germans, etc, rather than as 'non-Chinese', while the word 外国人 only says what you
are not. These differences in usage and connotation, more than anything else, are behind the
common impression that there is something wrong with the word (even people who can't speak Chinese
don't like being 'laowai').










Hero Doug -

Sorry, haven't been able to get on in a couple day's didn't expect so many replies.

I read daxia's post saying he used the term 东亚病夫 for annoying people lately. I can see how
this would be the same as saying something like "Dumbass Chinese", which would give the impression
that you hate all Chinese, when it's just that one annoying person.

I like dalaowai's suggestion of using xiangxiaren. Much more personal, shouldn't offend other's
who don't deserve it. The problem is that it's quite likely the person who origionally insulted
you will take offence to it not even realizing they had it coming to them. If they were to attack
you, I imagine if any Chinese bystanders had the gull to step into the fight (Not quite their
style from what I gather, wouldn't "want to get hurt" as my students often put it) there's a good
chance they aren't going to help you, just speculation, but I wouldn't expect any help.

And unlike Canada, where people will let other's fight, they stop it once someone has lost. I
don't think they extend that same courtesy here. I'd be worried they'd just keep going until
you're limp.

I'd like to hear your fight stories daxia, anyone rush to your aid? Or your opponents? Or, the one
I'm leaning towards, did everyone just watch?



Quote:


Originally Posted by woliveri

I hear LaoWai all the time here in Shanghai and it doesn't bother me a bit. In fact, when I hear
it I sometimes just reply back in Chinese, "wo bu shi laowai, wo shi zhongguo ren" with a smile
and be on my way.


Sometimes I'll just point back and call whoever said it Chinese. It usually surprises them.

Anyways, from what I've gathered, it's not really the word that's all bad, it's the people using
it. Some people just want to be jerks, and since you're a foreigner, they use the word foreigner
to be jerks to you. Seem's to have given the word a bad reputation.

Not sure if I'll ever get over the stigma of the word, may just ask people to use waiguoren.

P.S.


Quote:


Originally Posted by self-taught-mba

Most of the times it is kids that say it too me (my school is in an area in Beijing with
relatively few foreigners).

It is not considered polite and I've even heard parents tell the kids so. I think it is a matter
of ignorance for many people though and I don't really care. Like someone else said, it is more
about the attitude and feeling behind it.


I do have one comment on this, so give weight to what I said above.

When walking down the road I encountered a mother and her child (very young). The child looked at
me and said Waiguoren, kind of amazed. I don't really mind that. I've even noticed myself, after
not really seeing other foreigners for so long take notice of other foreigners, although I don't
announce it at the top of my lungs.

It's when children/teenagers/adults run up to you (or from where their standing) point, shout, and
laugh waiguoren/laowai. That get's to me. That's what's I mean by people using the term negatively
feeding the negative stigma it already has.

P.P.S. I know many adult aged Chinese people say their just excited to see a foreigner, but I
don't buy that for a second. It's just being a jerk. And I especially believe it after my friend
talked about this with a class of children he was teaching, and the children directly said "their
laughing at you", which I side with. Sadly I see this kind of stuff too much. Mostly from Children
and teenagers, but some adults to. It's just so detrimental to the country.










Long Zhiren -



Quote:

"bloke"

Wouldn't a better equivalent of that be 家伙?










xichg -

If you think Laowai is an insult and you are really bothered by it, it only means one thing: your
Chinese is pretty bad and you don't know Chinese society/culture well enough.










xichg -

As a Chinese who use and hear 老外 on the daily basis, I think this is neutral or even positive
word. It derives fromt he word 外国人. In chinese language you put the word 老 before the
first character of a noun and you form another word. If you want to look into the meaning of
老外, you should look into the meaning of 外国人. I think most people would agree that it's a
neutral word. In US people don't get offended by referred to as 'foreigner', because that's what
they are. But words' meaning keep changing and developing. Now the usage of the word 老外 sort
of is restricted to white people. And since most Chiense will associate positive things with white
people (i know this statement might cause controversy or even outcry of racism, but this is true
most of the time. One close African American friend told me that Chinese 'worship' white people),
the word 老外 has some positive connotions. On a scale of 1 to 100 (50 is neutral), I would put
it at about 75 or 80.

老黑 on the other hand has somewhat negative connotions. That's why I avoid using it in
converations. It's supposed to be a neutral term as 老外, but also as 老外 it gains its
感情色彩 from the perception most Chinese have on Africa-origined people. You may want to ask
how the Chinese people have these pre-conceptions since most of Chinese never meets a foreigner in
their lifetime. I think those conceptions are from the movies, TV shows, books, etc. And most
people in China think they know black people were discriminated in the west. This education is
supposed to be a good thing but when being educated many Chinese people actually ACCEPT the
stereotypes, and the discrimination against black people is imported to China. On the scale of 1
to 100, I would put this word at 40.










Long Zhiren -



Quote:

P.P.S. I know many adult aged Chinese people say their just excited to see a foreigner, but I
don't buy that for a second.

This happens all over the world. For most cases, I think you have to give them the benefit of the
doubt and assume goodwill.

I'm ethnically Chinese and born in Indiana many decades ago. I'm a native English speaker. Chinese
is my third language. I still encounter Americans all over the US who say they're excited to see
(me) a foreigner, when I'm not! They mean it too. They're just a bit slow.

Here's some of the favorite things that I've heard: "Your English is so good...I can barely hear
your accent..." "...I still remember when President Nixon visited your people..." "...where are
you from?..[Indiana]....no, where are you really from?...[It's just off the coast of
Manchuria.]...oh..."

On the flip-side, there's still plenty of flak, not so-well intentioned, from people even in the
most so-called multicultural and diversified parts of the country like California. People trying
to take advantage of me and wondering why I'm glaring at them... "...what? no you speakee
English?..."

People are people...naturally jerks. You need to get better at recognizing when they don't intend
to be jerks.

In Europe, nobody guesses that I'm American. They assume that I'm visiting from East Asia. I
actually get treated with more respect than prototypical Americans get...










赫杰 -



Quote:

If you think Laowai is an insult and you are really bothered by it, it only means one thing: your
Chinese is pretty bad and you don't know Chinese society/culture well enough.

I don’t think it means this at all, but I do think you are failing to put yourself in a
foreigner’s shoes. Let's imagine that you go to America where many people call you a "chink" or
even "foreigner" and points and laughs at you, and let's just say this happens on a daily basis.
Not only this, let's say the people around you talk about you and how weird and different you
look, just because they think you don't understand English. Would you feel very welcomed? Even if
it was part of our (America's) culture to talk about people loudly, derogatorily, and in ear shot
of the person being discussed, could you honestly say that you would not take it to heart? Could
you just dismiss it, and forgive these people on a daily basis, even though you know people should
not 以貌取人?



Quote:

As a Chinese who use and hear 老外 on the daily basis, I think this is neutral or even positive
word.

Here in 武汉, I once had a Chinese woman actually spit on me and say 该死的老外, while
walking in the street, and for no apparent reason. And I am sure there are people on this forum
who have experienced worse, so don't fucking tell me this is neutral or an even a positive word!
And I never did anything wrong, I do nothing to these people to deserve this, so now when I walk
in public, I just either hide behind a book and study, or just stare at the ground, cause I don't
want to catch someone's eye and give them an excuse to say shit to me.

I agree with everyone else that it all depends on context, when me and a good friend here go play
basketball together, someone will ask "who is on my team?" My friend will say him, him, and
老外, of course I am not offended in this situation.

Even though I have had some rough experiences with some Chinese here, I am definitely not going to
say that all Chinese are bad, because that would be 一概而论.

HJ










xichg -

Is it fair to equate 'chink' to 'laowai'? I think 'foreigner' is a better comparision than 'chink'.
And there is a huge difference between ‘该死的老外’and just '老外'.
It's just like 'foreigner' is a neutral word, but 'damn foreigners' is not neutral at all, but
it's not the word 'foreigner''s fault.
You are not alone in having bad experiences. The other day I was walking on campus, and some girl
walking behind me just shouted at me 'fucking Asians'. Should I blame the word 'Asian'?

As you said, it's all about context. And I still believe most people when they say 'laowai', they
have no bad intention at all. And they are not trying to be jerks on you. It's more about
surprise, curiosity and excitement. Of course you have every right to be bothered or annoyed, but
the thuth remains that in most cases it is not used to insult you.

I grow up in a village and it's very rare to see an aeroplane. Let's say a group of kids were
playing in the fields and somebody spotted a plane flying overhead. The kid who saw that plane
would be extremely excited. He would shouted 'Feiji, feiji' while pointing his finger at the plane
to draw other children's attention. And then other children will gazed at the plane until it
became too small to be seen. Years later I still do that, saluting every passing plane and being
amazed and excited by it.

It's also rare for many Chinese to see a real foreigner in real life. I think I can draw a
parallel between my plane story and kids calling you guys 'laowai' on the street. It's not the
best behavior, and you have every right to feel offended and annoyed, but the kids are not trying
to be a jerk on you or trying to insult you. Just like when my childhood pals got excited and
shouted when they saw a plane, the children here are also more excited, curisou than being mean,
hateful. Unfortunately it won't be a pleasant experience for many foreigners in China. It will
change when people are exposed to more foreigners. I was also excited to see foreigners when I
went to college in Beijing although I didn't yell 'laowai' at them or followed them. I remembered
how nervous and excited I was when I summoned courage to talk to a real foreigner in Zhengzhou
Raiway station square years ago. He was a Canadian, an English teacher teaching in Qingdao.
Luckily for me, he was very nice and very encouraging. I think my confidence would totally went
away if he just shouted at me, 'no free english lesson for you. Now when i walk on the street, i
don't look at laowais (except pretty hot girls) because they are everywhere. I do stare when i see
Asians on the street now.

Anyway, that's my perspective on the 'laowai' or 'hello' issue you guys encouter everyday. I do
know it won't be easy for many of you, and I don't deny it's annoying. But still it's important to
be cool, understanding and forgiving. I know you won't like it, but you can try seeing it as part
of Chinese culture, at least for now. That way you may find more positive feeling and less
negative feeling. You life in China will be more enjoyable and rewarding. And you won't find the
need to shout back '东亚病夫' (this is a very insulting word to Chinese) and get yourself in
trouble.










赫杰 -



Quote:

Is it fair to equate 'chink' to 'laowai'? I think 'foreigner' is a better comparision.

I wrote:


Quote:

or even "foreigner" and points and laughs at you

But yes I do believe it is fair to equate, because when someone calls me a 该死的老外, or the
like, and considering it being said in such a hateful and menacing tone, the only thing that I can
think of in America is the dumb asses who say something like, "You god damn/motha fucking chink"
Yes, you could replace "foreigner" with "chink" and the meaning is still there, but because you
are chinese, it is more insulting, and has more feeling.

The only reason I equated chink to laowai, was for my "what if" situation I presented to you and
to allow you to put yourself in a foriegner's situation in china, I am not saying lao wai = chink.
Similarly, if you were mexican, and was trying to make a similar point, I would have used spic.












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Tsinghua in '06
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Dani_man -

I write the instructions as the university sent me:

registration place: foreign student affairs office located on the first floor of Zijing dormitory
no.22 near the zijing east gate.
route: fo straight northward from the west crossroad of the wudaokou subway station to the zijing
east gate.


I think it would be easier to ask the cab driver to take you there, when you around the university
block. ask for the zijing east gate, and you'll find all the other students looking for the place
as well... :-)



good luck!



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ouaouaron -

thanks dani
anyone know when the placement test will be held? thanks!










Qcash3 -

Just arrived yesterday, and I will be following up with the school to get all the details about
registration and such. I'll put them up here when I get em.










waijohn -

Hey dp.mabey--Hoping you can help a bit here.

Would you mind sharing with us why Tsinghua after having spent a semester at BLCU? I am starting
at BLCU on Sept. 15 (College of Intensive Chinese, not Advanced. Slated to take the 30-hour week
course for a semester, perhaps a year).

I spent five weeks this past summer at BNU's Mandarin program, and although the teachers were
fabulously nice, I thought they could have more demanding of their students. How was your
experience at BLCU? Why Tsinghua now?

Cheers. Hope to hear from you soon.
John
waijohn@Hotmail.com










Qcash3 -

I didn't see my name on the placement test list. Does anyone have an idea as to why? In the little
information sheet I got it said that general scholars must choose their classes on line, but I'm
pretty sure the only class i'm taking is Modern Chinese Language.










adrianlondon -

FYI The Summer language course at BNU is at a very different (i.e. slower and less formal) pace
than the normal semester courses. Usually a different type of student too.

I would assume other places are similar.












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北京方言全攻略
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xiaoxiajenny -

鸡贼—小气，吝啬，暗藏私心。
　　砸窑—是留着不给别人的意思。
　　局器—仗义，大方，豪爽。
　　果儿—是女人的意思。
　　尖果—漂亮的女孩。
　　苍果—老太太。
　　戏果—跟泡妞，嗅蜜一个意思，台湾话叫把马子。
　　孙儿—被泡的男孩。
　　尖孙—漂亮的男孩。
　　傍家儿—情妇，现在官称二奶。
　　土鳖—形容没见过世面不开眼的人。
　　小力笨儿---在店铺或车站码头做粗活、杂活的学徒。
　　水三儿---老北京对送水的称呼，多为山东人。
　　点卯---北京土话，到那儿报到或看一眼，打个照面儿的意思。
　　言语---北京的口语，即说话的意思，言语的读音是元义。
　　翻车---北京土话，即翻脸的意思。
　　炸了庙---北京土话，惊愕，急眼的意思。
　　练家子---北京土话，练武术的人。
　　理门儿---老北京一种禁烟酒的民间社会组织，形式近似reee，有“理门公
所“管
理事务，加入者称为“在理儿“，对外人推辞烟酒时说“我有’门坎’。“
　　瞎了---北京土话，即倒霉了、完了的意思。
　　出现场---gongan人员赶到事发现场，处理问题。
　　念央儿---北京土话，跟人说自己的意思，但又故意让旁边的人听见。
　　摔咧子---北京土话，发脾气的意思。
　　鸡---野鸡的简称，也被称为“鸡婆“，就是暗娼。
　　这程子---北京土话，这一段时间的意思。
　　拉了胯---北京土话，服软的意思。
　　半不啰啰---北京土话，半截儿，事情做到一半，尚未完成。
　　大拿---北京土话，能作主管事的人。
　　抹不丢地---北京土话，难为情，面子上不光彩。有时，也说成抹咕丢的�
��
　　大限---即寿数。过去人们迷信，认为人的寿命都是有定数的，“大限已�
��“就是数已到，快到死的意思。
　　火筷子---老北京人捅火炉子的铁棍，也叫通条。
　　末末了儿---北京土话，最后、最终的意思，有时也简化为“末了儿“。
　　概儿不论---京城新土语，一概不管的意思，论，读“吝“。
　　颠儿了---撒腿跑了。
　　勺上---“勺“是北京土话，打，打架的意思。“勺上“，就是连带着把�
��也给打了。
　　横---北京土话“横是“的简化音，“横是“是“横竖“的变读，有大概�
��反正、也许的意思。
　　唏溜儿---北京土话，说话用鼻子吸气，即不利落的意思。也可写作吸溜�
��。
　　点儿背---北京土话，“点儿“，指不幸的遭遇、运气；即所谓的背时。�
��点儿背“的意思是运气不好，倒霉。
　　脏了房---老北京人迷信，认为人被凶杀，死在屋子里，会带来晦气，故�
��“脏房“一说。
　　咕容---在地上蠕动的意思，北京方言。
　　遭践---北京土话，埋没、糟踏的意思，自己把自己给淹践了，即自杀的�
��义。
　　业障---作孽、罪过。
　　摆龙门阵---四川话，闲聊天的意思。
　　一绷子---北京土话，即很长时间的意思。有时也说一绷儿。
　　号---监狱或拘留所的别称。
　　片子---“片“读骗，片子即名片，北京新土语。
　　猫着---北京土话，闲呆着的意思，也有躲藏的含义。
　　替---也叫“T“，即人民币，属于道儿上的黑话。
　　妈咪---歌厅的女领班。
　　怯勺---北京土话，不懂行，闹笑话的意思。
　　全活儿---京城隐语，即卖身，也就是暗娼。
　　傍着---即依附，“傍家儿“一词由此引申而来。
　　葛---北京方言，即脾气各色，古怪。有时也用作形容词，形容什么事儿�
��什么东西葛。
　　打漂儿---即无职无业，在社会上闲逛。北京土话。
　　帕替---英语party的译音，小型舞会、音乐会、聚会的意思。（港台译作��
�对）
　　雁么虎---蝙蝠。北京方言。
　　大喇---喇，北京新土语，指出卖色相和肉体的放荡女人。“喇“的前边�
��上一个“大“字，是强调其名气和“宰人“的狠劲儿。考证“喇“的词义��
�与“拉人“有关，“拉人“即“宰人“，“喇“是“拉“的音变。
　　卖---京城隐语，即卖身。
　　雷子---黑话，即便衣警察。
　　盘儿---北京的黑话，即脸蛋。盘儿，从“脸盘“这个词衍化而来。
　　底儿掉---北京土话，知道对方的老底。
　　老坷垃完---北京土话，自蔑老而无用、保守的人。
　　扫听---北京土话，四处探听，扫听与打听不同，“扫“带有更为主动的�
��思。
　　张着神---北京土语，留心留意。
　　逗牙签子---北京土语，开玩笑的意思，与“逗咳嗽“、“逗闷子“、“�
��哈哈儿“等类似。
　　消停---北京土语，踏实的意思。
　　玩蝎了虎子---北京土话，蝎了虎子就是壁虎，爬得轻快，人不易抓住。�
��玩蝎了虎子“的意思是让人摸不着，形容人比较滑头。
　　端了---北京土话，抄了的意思。端，即“连锅端“的简化用语。
　　瞜瞜---北京土话，看，瞧，瞅的意思。
　　捞人---北京新俗语，捞，即打捞之意。北京人称被juu或入狱者为“掉进�
��了“（掉河），故有捞人之语，即通过不正当手法把被拘留的人弄出来。
　　刷夜---北京流行语，即有家不回，夜里在外闲荡。
　　撒癔症---北京土话，夜间到处乱逛，癔症本是一种病症，此话是引申过�
��的。
　　把不住---北京方言。把，是动词，管束不住自己的意思。
　　折---读“舌“，北京新流行语，即犯了案子被gongan人员抓了起来。最早�
��隐语，即黑话，后被青年人引用而流行。
　　折---读“遮“，折跟头的折，本是一句隐语，即被gongan人员抓起来的意�
��，后成为流行语，“折进去“、“折进来“，就是被关起来的意思。
　　全须全尾---北京土话，完整，整个身子的意思。尾，读“以儿“。
　　应场---北京土话，到某种场合参加活动。
　　眼里见儿---北京常用语，指眼里有活儿，不用别人提醒就能及时动作。
　　拿大顶---北京方言，倒立。
　　发小儿---北京方言，从小一块长大的，发，读fａ。
　　翻扯---北京土话，发急，发火的意思。
　　把不住边---北京土话，说话没谱儿，爱吹善侃的意思。
　　挑费---北京土话，指家庭日常生活里用度。挑，读ti?o。
　　五积子六瘦---北京土话，形容因吃不上喝不上，骨瘦如柴的样子。
　　老家儿---北京土话，指父母。“老家儿“读快了就成了“老尖“，北京�
��常用语。
　　百年---北京土话，死的意思。
　　迄小儿---北京土话，从小的意思。
　　小蜜---情妇。北京新流行语。
　　掉腰子---北京土话，耍花招。
　　念秧儿---北京土话，没话找话，聊天，说话的意思。
　　他大爷的---北京土话，不带脏字的骂人的话。
　　抹不丢地---北京土话，不好意思。
　　哪一出儿---北京土话，什么事儿的意思，是一出戏的简化。
　　走营---北京土话，频繁往返的意思。此处引申为心里有事，闹得慌，也�
��以说闹心。
　　熬头---北京土话，心里烦恼的意思，也写作熬慆。
　　攒了---北京土话，形容总不运动，身体变得不舒展。攒，读cuａn。
　　打卦---北京土话，脑子里翻来覆去地想。
　　乍么实儿---北京土话，突然大叫的意思。 后门桥的茶馆，
　　一品轩---老北京的一句俏皮话，后门桥是北京的地名，一品轩是茶馆的�
��字。
　　卖山音---北京土话，显摆自己有见识。
　　揿头拍子---北京土话，不懂人情世故的人。
　　完菜---北京新流行语，完蛋的意思。此语是由“歇菜“、“瞎菜“等引�
��而来，“菜“作为后缀词语，并没有实际意义，如北京话中的“戏“作为��
�缀一样。
　　爵儿---北京土话，职位的意思。爵，是爵位的简化，爵位，即官衔。
　　框外的事---北京土话，即出格的事，带有违法乱纪的意思。
　　晕菜---北京新流行语，晕了的意思，“晕菜“与“瞎菜“，“完菜“等�
��似。
　　炸庙---北京土话，瞎咋唬的意思，含有唬人的意味。
　　脏口儿---养鸟人的术语，串了杂音。’百灵’能押口儿，即学各种声音�
��但忌讳学杂音，一旦’脏口儿’，鸟儿就不值钱了。
　　办---北京新流行语，把犯罪嫌疑人关押起来的意思。
　　睖---北京土话，斜眼瞪。
　　光荣喽---北京新流行语，光荣牺牲的简化。光荣，即牺牲，也就是死。
　　棒槌---北京话，蠢笨，外行的意思。
　　撂高儿---北京土话，观察的意思，常与打远儿连用。
　　哈着---北京土话，央求的意思。哈，有点头哈腰，巴结对方的含义。
　　一个---北京新流行语，一万的别称，类似“大团结“表示十元，一张儿�
��表示一百元，一本，表示一千元。“一个“是一个“草字头“的简化。繁��
�字的方，有个草字头，故有此称。
　　白案儿---厨行术语，做面食的。
　　丑儿---京剧里的丑角儿。
　　灯泡儿---北京土话，被人当晃子利用的人的谑称。
　　上赶着---北京土话，主动的意思。
　　姥姥的---北京土话，感叹词语，作惊讶状时用。如不加“的“，单说“�
��姥“则是反驳词，有“胡说“、“不行“、“不干“的意思，但加上“的��
�的意思就变了。“的“读“逮“。
　　南蛮子---北方人对南方人的蔑称，但此语早过时，现一般指南方来的性�
��粗野的人。
　　吃黑枣---挨枪子。
　　套瓷---北京新流行语，套近乎的意思。
　　情儿---北京新流行语，情人、情妇的简称。
　　照顾主儿---生意口儿上的顾客。
　　抻掇---北京土话，批评、数落的意思。
　　脱---脱衣舞表演的简称。
　　裹乱---北京土话，从中插入干扰的意思。
　　拍三角---五六十年代，北京的青少年喜欢玩的玩艺儿，由废旧的烟盒叠�
��三角形状，在地上用手掮正反面，论输赢。
　　上麻桌儿---指打麻将。
　　门坎儿---指进入“帮派“（即黑道）的圈里。
　　走了眼---即把东西看错了，北京土话，用在这里是引申，即分析问题不�
��确。
　　撂高儿打远儿---北京土话，朝远处看。
　　老家雀儿---北京土话，对上岁数人的谑称。
　　端---北京土话，干掉，打掉的意思。
　　碎催---北京土话，指伺候人、为人奔走的人，带有贬意。
　　擎小儿---北京土话，擎的本义是往上托，擎小儿就是从小的意思。
　　褃节儿---北京土话，关键时刻，如同节骨眼儿一词。
　　倒窖---北京土话，翻扯旧事，即回忆往事。
　　卖葱---北京土话，装傻充愣的意思。
　　套桩---北京土话，让人给盯上了。
　　丢身子---属于陈旧的老北京土话，过去的人不懂性科学，以为男人跟女�
��发生性关系，会失去身体内的阳气，故有此说。
　　走迹---北京方言，木头因风吹日晒而变形的意思，此语引申为把人看错�
��。北京土话中
　　有“走板了“，跟这个词义相同。
　　去的是什么什么角儿---扮演的是什么角色，去是当的意思，角儿，角色�
��读“觉儿“音。
　　勾儿的---北京土语中一句骂人的话。
　　放份儿---北京新流行语，猖狂的意思。
　　板儿锹---铁锹。
　　报销---北京土话，即完了，没了的意思。
　　找根绳儿---上吊自杀的意思。
　　硌窝儿---北京方言，指鸡蛋、鸭蛋在出窝之前受到破损。
　　迟登---北京土话，犹豫的意思。
　　熬可---北京土话，煎熬的意思。
　　联手儿---北京土话，合伙、合作人。
　　这会子---北京土话，“会“字读“悔“。这会子表示时间很长，即这么�
��天的意思。此语是京城很流行的俗语。
　　童蛋子儿---童贞之意。
　　正行---北京土话，调皮，没正经的意思。行，读“形“。
　　王老五---单身汉的谑称。
　　麻利儿---北京土话，赶快，快点的意思。此语必须加儿化韵，“利儿“�
��轻声。
　　嘿喽儿着---让小孩骑在自己的脖子上。
　　忤窝子---北京土话，生性怯懦，腼腆，胆儿小的意思。
　　闪---北京新流行语，闪开，躲避，舍弃的意思。
　　张八样儿---北京土话，不稳重的意思。
　　错来---北京土话，其实的意思。
　　老着脸---北京土话，舍脸的意思。
　　不顺把---北京土话，事业上不顺利的意思。
　　披虱子袄---北京土话，形容遇到了扯缠不清的麻烦事。
　　二意思思---北京土话，犹豫不决，三心二意的意思。
　　晕了菜---北京土话，晕眩的意思。
　　见天---北京土话，天天的意思。
　　轴---北京方言，指脾气执拗。
　　不着三不着两---北京人常说的俗语，即没头没脑的意思。
　　甩片汤话---甩闲话。
　　跑头子货---北京土话，不正派的女人，“跑“有私奔之意，所以这个词�
��与男人私奔的意思。
　　说话要走---说话，就是马上，很快的意思，这是北京人常用的一个口语



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